Saloon sole 'hole'

[MarkRyan1981]

Ever since I have had Triola, there has always been a strange cut out in the sole that has been poorly repaired and had thus cracked and had come away. As I am going to repaint my sole as one of my next jobs, I thought it a good time to repair this damage with a proper GRP bevel.

I assumed there must have been some kind of damage under the sole that had previously been repaired, however, I could see none.

The first mate modelling the ugly cut out:


With very little force, it came up:


And there doesn't appear to be any good reason why a previous owner hacked it out in the first place:


Any reason why I shouldn't GRP this ugly mess back up? Any theories as to why it was hacked out in the first place?

[Bob McGovern]

Best guess is "Hard grounding, followed by sole removal for inspection/survey/repairs." It's pretty common for the Ballad to buckle a little at the keel/hull join, aft end following a hard keel impact. Not generally enuf to compromise watertightness, but definitely some crumpling of the laminates. Our boat shows evidence of past repairs at that location, and I will need to clean up and biax/epoxy the place to make up for a poor mat/polyester repair done by a previous owner or yard.

Can't see evidence of glass work under your hoses, tho. Maybe they cut out the panel, then decided the keel was okay? Or possibly they cut it out to run the pretty white hose -- tho that seems drastic!

[MarkRyan1981]

That white hose was actually me I finally got around to installing the 12V bilge pump I've had rattling around for years and I managed to pull the hose through (this was before I had man handled the panel up).

I guess inspection post grounding must be it? I'll take another look around before I glass it up properly and then repair the sole - those cut marks have bugged me for years! Time they went away.

I'd be interested to see where your repair was - it always shocks me that people try and repair polyester with polyester, in the small amounts required for a repair it seems like a very strange economy to make indeed! Epoxy is so much better (well, I hardly need to tell you that, most of my learning about these composite matters began with talking to you on here!)

Thanks Bob.

[Bob McGovern]

Repairs might have been 20yrs ago, tho -- when marine epoxies were rare in the field. And in truth, even secondary polyester-to-polyester bonds are about 70% as strong as epoxy-to-polyester. So you are in the neighborhood of 2000psi bond strength, which definitely falls into the 'good enuf for most applications' category. I agree that most owner repairs justify the epoxy upcharge. That's why we did our side decks in biaxial fabric and epoxy: the price differential was maybe $100 over polyester and chopped mat. But for a boat yard, the economics are different: they go thru thousands of yards of fabric and buy ten barrels of resin a year. For them, 'good enuf' versus 'best possible' might be the difference between profit & loss. Also polyester cures hard faster, so they can push repair work thru bang bang bang.

Point is, even an owner can do a perfectly sound repair in polyester and chopped mat. Personally I like 1708 biax, 10oz woven cloth, and discount epoxy, but we should recall our boats were originally laid up with polyester, coarse roving, and chopper guns. And they are plenty strong.

I'll get some photos of the keel area soon. Also have the new truss located, drilled and tapped, yay!

[MarkRyan1981]

My late father was a shipwright and its true, he had plenty of polyester resin kicking about (most of it gone off by the time I got to it) - after the help I had from West System patching Triola up (http://www.albinballad.co.uk/how-tos/fi ... your-keel/) I've become a bit of a dyed in the wool fan - if it keeps still for long enough, I'll slap a coat of epoxy on it... (currently working on my cockpit locker hatchs ... unsuccessfully http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread. ... d-disaster)

More photos of the truss please!! Keep us apprised of your progress Bob!

[Bob McGovern]

Question re: locker lids. Do you recall what they are made of, exactly? Could be one solid piece of cherry/mahog/teak with applied nosing and mitered-in breadboards... or could be rotary-cut Philippine mahogany (aka Merenti, aka Lauan) or Sapele plywood (probably 12mm?) with solid wood nosing. Which, as a cabinet maker, seems the more promising option. Would help to know the wood species.

At any rate, looks like surface checking with complications. I have some thoughts on your compatibility issues. Might be worth its own thread, perhaps one dedicated to locker hatches in general? There's quite a range of hatch solutions on Albin Ballads.

[MarkRyan1981]

They are Sapele ply, the frame surround being made I think in Iroko. Quite right though, I'll set up a different thread. See below for the original creation of the locker hatches. I'm loathed to replace them as they were made by my late father,

http://www.albinballad.co.uk/technology ... r-hatches/

[Bob McGovern]

Yeah, I thought they were ply. In which case, ignore the grampuses on WoodenBoat advising you to put them thru a thickness planer! You likely have acid stuck down in the face-veneer surface checking (probably in the form of crystals) which will be very difficult to get out. Epoxy is basically a phenolic resin cured with an amine crosslinker, which is moderately basic (alkaline) and modifies the pH of the resin, aiding polymerization. So you can guess what the introduction of an acid to your surface will do for localized epoxy curing! Likewise, superglues (cyanoacrylates) cure in a basic environment provided by oxygen + isocyanate catalyst. CA glues will never cure on certain acidic woods like oaks. You can force or accelerate its cure via an amine dryer in a spritz bottle, or even rub baking soda over the repair.

So you may need to neutralize the acid first with baking soda, ammonia, or lye (sodium hydroxide) solution. You could also try to seal the surface checks using dewaxed (Super-Blonde) shellac, sanded back; or try a penetrating epoxy sealer, like Smith's, which is heavily solvented and less sensitive to the presence of mildew, acids, waxes, or other contaminants than WEST is. Nasty, nasty stuff to breathe, but incredibly effective. You'd still want several coats of exterior-grade varnish (probably solvent-based, for compatability) to protect the epoxy from UV damage.

http://www.smithandcompany.org/CPES/

So I tried to get a meaningful photo of our repaired aft-most bilge area, which I think got minged in a grounding. But it's just too messy back there right now for photos to show the glass work (which is pretty decent). This photo instead shows the outside keel/hull transition with obvious putty work, plus some of the extensive fairing someone did from the aft edge of the keel to almost the raw water intake: